Kitty
Transcendent Member
Posts: 1,448
|
Post by Kitty on Aug 2, 2018 23:41:56 GMT
I was thinking about how I feel about Freestyle after 9 months. One of my blog readers mentioned that she still hadn't really embraced Freestyle. And, I realized I probably needed to write something about how I feel about it. What I realized is that while I philosophically have liked a lot about the program ... it hasn't worked well for me at all.
On the positives - I do think that the program tries to encourage healthier eating. I do like a lot of the zero point foods. I like lean chicken breast and fish. I like eggs. I like beans. I don't eat beef. I watch the amount of added sugar that I eat. So -- in many ways the program aligns with what I think is healthier eating.
I can also see how this program may be easier for the average member. Most people don't like to track. They, at best, think of it as a necessary chore and, at worst, won't do it at all. Some people won't do WW at all due to tracking. For most people I think that not having to track zero point foods is a huge benefit.
And, yet.... At the start of this year I had been lifetime at goal for 2 1/2 years. Now, I am almost 15 pounds above goal. To be clear, I don't blame most of that on Freestyle. From February to the end of June was horrific for me in many ways that negatively affected my weight. We got our house ready to sell including a period of weeks when we couldn't use our kitchen at all and ate out twice a day. Then we stressed to pack and get ready to move. We moved to a short term rental 250 miles away and didn't have most of our stuff. And, we spent time looking for a house and then moving in with a cascade of errors (being without a refrigerator when our new one arrived damaged). And, on top of all of that my mother was very ill for 2 1/2 months and then died just before we moved into our house. All of that has been the main reason that I ended up above goal.
But we have been in the new house about 6 or 7 weeks and I haven't started losing weight. I resolved to do it. I always track calories at MFP and I was very careful to start also tracking points. And, I found that I was always going in the hole by huge amounts. What was frustrating was when this happened and I was well within my calorie goal and/or I was eating the exact same way that I ate to lose the 65 pounds that I lost getting back to goal originally.
I wondered today if my perception of that was correct. I keep a record of what I eat each day on MFP and I went back and calculated how many points each meal was that I ate that was under 1300 calories. What I found was that on those days, I ate an average of 30 points. The problem is that I get 23 points a day + 28 weekly points. So, an average of 27 points. At 30 points a day I am in the hole about 21 points a week.
There were days that I ended up at 27 points a day. For example. There was a day I ate 22 points. The problem? I ate 710 calories that day, 770 calories on another 22 point day. A more typical day was I ate 1027 calories at 29 points. No, I didn't eat a lot of junk. I ate only 10 g of saturated fat and 25 g of sugar most of which was natural sugar in foods, not added sugar.
I also found that some weeks where I was fine on calories, I was way over on points. For example, there was a week that I was in the hole by 53 points. I ate an average of 1193 calories a day.
It may sound like I must eat a lot of really unhealthy food. But, I don't. I don't eat beef. I don't eat a lot of added sugar. I do eat a serving of nuts (5 points) every day. WW basically charges me the same points for that as for lean red meat. I do drink a milk based protein shake that is 4 points. I do have a Quest bar (4 points) on some days.
But, basically the same food program that I was able to lose weight on (about 1200 calories a day) is one that totally puts me above points now. And, I find that when I track points it ends up being demotivating to me. I found that I am out of weekly points within 2 or 3 days. The other day we went on Day 1 of my week and had a high calorie meal. It was the kind of thing that I could do while losing weight and I would still end up with an overall good week. But, this time I ended up using all of my weekly points on day 1. Seeing that negative number for weekly points made it really hard for me to stay on program. In that situation, I tend to want to just start over the next week...and that doesn't work out well.
Anyway - I think I am just going to calorie count and not even try to count points. This program just doesn't seem to align well with what I ate I eat. I don't think it is a bad program from most people. But for me it is like a strait jacket.
|
|
|
Post by bbbearsmom on Aug 2, 2018 23:54:55 GMT
Kitty, Thanks for sharing. I still haven't decided about Free Style. I've been gaining weight since March but I've haven't been tracking all of that time and I have been eating over my points. Also I started a new medication and I've gained weight on new meds before. Anyway my goal now is to stay within my maintenance points for a while to see if I stablilize my weight, if not I will slowly lower my points until I do. I really want to stay with the WW system. I have a problem with MFP, or I did. When I was maintaining I tried using it and it gave me too few calories. I was staying within my maintenance points on Points Plus and not gaining weight but my calorie counts ended up being over my 100 to 200 calories a day on MFP.
|
|
|
Post by DebDoesWW on Aug 3, 2018 0:17:59 GMT
I totally agree Kitty! Great analysis.
|
|
|
Post by zazzles on Aug 3, 2018 0:27:23 GMT
Interesting observations, Kitty. Much of what you said reflects my feelings and thinking. I've had days where I've adhered to my caloric goal (1,900 calories according to ww and everyone else) and racked up 45 or more points against my daily budget of 35 and my weekly allowance of 42. Since the most important thing for me is controlling and tracking carbs to control blood sugar and calculate insulin doses, I decided shortly after the start of Freestyle that I have to track total nutrition and not worry about points. Since I use my own homegrown tracker, I get NI and points automatically, so I haven't stopped tracking points. But I no longer allow points to dictate food choices or when I stop eating. For those who can follow Freestyle and lose or maintain and be happy, I think it is great. But having a day where I've eaten healthfully and my tracker says my calories for the day or 1,200 or less but I'm out of points is, in my opinion, downright unhealthy and dangerous. WW (and every other authority) has always said that members need to eat at least 1,200 calories per day. And to have a system that is "magic" in such a way as to enable a member to end up consuming 600 or 700 calories instead of 1,200 is, again in my opiniin, irresponsible. At the very least they could give a visual indication that, although you're out of points, you haven't consumed enough calories. I rarely take meals out, but today I had lunch with a friend. I chose as wisely as I could given the restaurant, and things were okay right up until I was surprised by a complimentary dessert to celebrate my birthday. I consumed less than half of the dessert, sharing with my friend. After coming home and tracking (see the daily What I Ate thread), I'm sitting at 1,812 calories but am 9 points over my daily points budget. Several of the friends I've developed at WW over the past 10 years are back at goal and free Lifetime; they got there during the PointsPlus era by jettisoning PointsPlus and tracking calories on LoseIt! They were happier with the ability to choose what they wanted to eat, being responsible adults most of the time (i.e., meeting the GHGs), and not playing the games that PointsPlus made them play. Needless to say, none of them have even considered giving Freestyle a try.
|
|
Kitty
Transcendent Member
Posts: 1,448
|
Post by Kitty on Aug 3, 2018 1:22:31 GMT
bbbearsmom, I found on MFP that its recommended calories for me were too high. Through trial and error I set my own calorie goal based upon what would either let me lose or maintain depending on what I wanted to do. I also track my protein grams pretty closely so try to reach that each day as well. zazzles, Yes, I have felt that one of the problems for me with Freestyle is that it is too disconnected from calories. I have had days that were relatively high in calories but low in points where I had a large meal that was mostly 0 point foods. But -- overall -- on the days I ate 1300 calories or less my calories per point used averaged about 36.6 calories. At 27 pounds per day (23 daily + 4 weekly) that is 988 calories a day. I can occasionally eat that (or even lower) but I don't do that every day. Instead if I do eat 1200 calories a day (on average) then I am way past my points. I guess WW would say that if I go over points when I eat 1200 calories a day then I should eat more 0 point foods. To do that, though, I would have to take out some of the foods I routinely eat. Yes, I could save 5 points a day by not eating nuts. But, I think that is one of the healthiest things that I eat. I don't really want to change that. For right now, I think I will do better with just calorie counting paying attention to my macros and the quality of what I eat. I don't believe in just calorie counting and just eating junk. That is the part of Freestyle that I do like, in that it encourages a healthier eating style. But, I know a lot about that already so I think that I can do better with just the calorie counting and not looking at points at all.
|
|
|
Post by Lurker on Aug 3, 2018 2:04:03 GMT
Without totally reading all of your comments: the best description of Freestyle is common sense. Zero point foods are.not.zero.calories.. Obviously if one eats all their daily points and lots of zero point foods - well, duh! I totally disagree with the WW statement the zero point foods don’t need to be tracked or measured. Tracking is what keeps us accountable to ourselves! “They”say watching portions not necessary and we’ll eat to satisfaction. Bah, humbug! Meeting rooms are full of people who didn’t recognize satisfaction.
|
|
|
Post by borntexan on Aug 3, 2018 2:09:19 GMT
I am just the opposite with points vs calories.I can get in 1200-1300 calories and still not get in enough points.I'm continuing the WW app for a couple of more months but I also track SP on itrackbytes. They also have the option there for tracking the GHG's which I like. On MFP today I came out with 1209 calories and I'm set on maintenance as I am on Freestyle.On FS it comes out to 20 FSP.That's within my healthy eating zone but it doesn't come up to using my maintenance points or not quite all the 23 points needed for losing.On Smart Points it only comes out to 24 SP and even if I'm in losing mode my points should be 30 but I'm set for maintenance so it's 33 dailies. I got to goal with SP and I liked it better than FS b/c the only foods that have 0 points are fruits & veggies.I do eat chicken,eggs and plain Greek yogurt once a day(which is 0 FSP)or since I eat Chobani it's 1 SP.I do eat one Light & Fit Greek yogurt a day which is 2 points on either plan. I don't know which way I will end up tracking eventually but I doubt I will stay with Freestyle for the long haul.It will either be SP or calories.I know a lot of people don't like to track but even on freestyle I track all foods 0 or points. Kitty WW still says on freestyle to not deprive yourself of any foods but it's really hard to do that on 23 points a day. I do think while freestyle isn't for me it may be the plan that gets them to goal.I think it could be a good maintenance plan although if I eat too many 0 point foods on it I know I won't maintain for very long.
|
|
|
Post by zazzles on Aug 3, 2018 2:59:21 GMT
KittyIn the 60s & 70s we were taught to eat on a rigid program (including the dreaded liver and fish 5x a week). I kind of went away in the early 80s, so I can't speak to those programs up to the 2nd year of POINTS. There we were introduced to magic FIBER. In 2010, we were given PointsPlus with the GHGs and coached to stay within points and meet the GHGs every day. Then came SmartPoints with the message that saturated fat and (all) sugars are E-V-I-L and that if we want to eat foods containing them, we have to pay dearly (premimum ponts). Then, after ONE year, we were given Freestyle with the expanded zero-points food list, further complicating the decision-making and tracking processes. My bottom line here is this—WW started out to be a nutritionally solid program that was easy to follow because very few decisions were required; the required foods each day and week were clear, as were those foods that were banned. Then along came POINTS and the game playing was afoot. We're now in the 4th major version of a points-counting system. Like it or hate it, if you adapt to the current program (whether you love it or hate it) you are virtually guaranteed that at some future point (1 year, 3, 5, who knows), WW will rip it out from under you and replace it with something else that will likely require a bunch of changes to your habits. All of this makes me think of the poor members who have 100, 200, 300 or more pounds to lose. It is almost guaranteed that they will have to make (possibly radical) changes at least once and maybe several times during their journey. And that, I'm afraid, places WW in a very bad light. There is no such thing as learn the program, work the program, and repeat until you reach goal. It seems we will always have the upheaval caused by "new" program so that WW has somethign they can market. When I think of this, it really seems sad because WW seems to have totally lost their way.
|
|
|
Post by borntexan on Aug 3, 2018 3:11:10 GMT
zazzles Mike I am in agreement with you.I lost close to 200 lbs on WW starting with PP and ending with SP.I got to goal on SP b/c I was willing to be penalized for the high sugar content on the few foods I eat with a lot of sugar.WW is the only program I have ever gotten to goal and maintained at the present for right at 2 yrs and although I know and hope they never do away with meetings I feel if they haven't lost their way they are well on the way there.It's really sad especially for the new people who have never known anything but freestyle and don't know about the good healthy guidelines.IMO that is one thing WW did away with that is still essential to their program.
|
|
|
Post by itsrad on Aug 3, 2018 3:14:00 GMT
Like it or hate it, if you adapt to the current program (whether you love it or hate it) you are virtually guaranteed that at some future point (1 year, 3, 5, who knows), WW will rip it out from under you and replace it with something else that will likely require a bunch of changes to your habits. Mike, you have once again vocalized something that I hadn't even realized bothered me. I was so successful with PP, and then had the rug pulled out from under me. I've never been able to "find my rhythm" since then. I've given Free Style a try, and I just don't think I can make it work for me. I don't think it encourages more healthful eating - it reminds me of the weird diets that used to be popular. "Chicken breasts and chocolate bar diet." This program allows too much manipulation. The disappearance of the good health guidelines was a pretty good indicator that this was never about good health. I rejoined a couple of months ago, and i've already jumped ship. I will use one of the free trackers, but I will no longer pay WW for this pretense of a program.
|
|
|
Post by zazzles on Aug 3, 2018 3:22:49 GMT
I don't think it encourages more healthful eating - it reminds me of the weird diets that used to be popular. "Chicken breasts and chocolate bar diet." This program allows too much manipulation. This exactly. While I read Kitty's comments and then wrote my own I had thoughts of all those weird diets: THE GRAPEFRUIT DIET, THE DRINKING MAN'S DIET, THE BANANA DIET, etc.
|
|
Kitty
Transcendent Member
Posts: 1,448
|
Post by Kitty on Aug 3, 2018 3:59:00 GMT
Without totally reading all of your comments: the best description of Freestyle is common sense. Zero point foods are.not.zero.calories.. Obviously if one eats all their daily points and lots of zero point foods - well, duh! I totally disagree with the WW statement the zero point foods don’t need to be tracked or measured. Tracking is what keeps us accountable to ourselves! I actually do track and measure all my food as I haven't missed a day in almost 5 years tracking at MFP. I also totally know that zero point foods aren't zero calories. That isn't my issue with Freestyle. My issue is that a lot of foods that I eat that are good foods that are healthy (not sugary junk) have enough points that I can't manage on 23 points a day. I did fine on Points Plus. I even did fine on SP when it first came out. Calories and points were more disconnected but overall I was OK. It is just now that it is a problem. My bottom line here is this—WW started out to be a nutritionally solid program that was easy to follow because very few decisions were required; the required foods each day and week were clear, as were those foods that were banned. Then along came POINTS and the game playing was afoot. We're now in the 4th major version of a points-counting system. Like it or hate it, if you adapt to the current program (whether you love it or hate it) you are virtually guaranteed that at some future point (1 year, 3, 5, who knows), WW will rip it out from under you and replace it with something else that will likely require a bunch of changes to your habits. I first joined WW during that time when you weren't there. I would never have done the original program as it was too rigid for me. When I joined in 1988 it was an exchange program. That gave me just enough flexibility. You did have to make a lot of decisions. It was sort of a jigsaw puzzle to get in exactly the right exchanges each day. But -- that was in an era before you could look up stuff on the internet and "diets" were rigid. WW's exchange program would let you eat cake or candy (albeit not very much could be fit in) which was all but unheard of at the time. However, the program had enough structure that I could do well on it. When I came back later, they were into the points programs. At the time, I felt that they were too loose in that you could just eat junk for your points. No one that I knew took the GHG seriously at all. That is, that was a recommended thing to do but it wasn't written in stone as required. That is - if you were within your points you were on program whether you got in 2 milk servings or not. It wasn't required in the same way it had been for exchanges. Now - if WW had said you must spend at least 4 points a day on milk, etc. then maybe. I've often thought that if they really wanted to structure things so people would eat healthier foods they could provide that some foods could only be eaten from weekly points, not daily. That is, if I want to eat candy -- fine, but it has to come out of weekly points (or FitPoints). Daily points have to be used for real food. That is basically how they did it with exchanges. You could eat cake or cookies or chips or candy. But it came out of your optional calories (similar to today's weekly points but much smaller in number). I do think that people need more structure. WW wants to sort of eat the cake and have it to. That is, tell us that we can eat anything on Freestyle (anything!) but making it where you can't possibly meet your points unless you eat a particular way. The problem is that the tool they use (points) is crude enough that it manages to basically make it hard to eat certain very healthy foods that end up with high points (milk, nuts, whole grains). On the rug pulling out thing -- I have mixed feelings. It is difficult on people to have the program radically changed particularly if it worked for you. That said - weight loss and nutrition are areas where the science really is rapidly changing and more information is known. I do want WW to change with the times and more info is known. That said -- I probably did my best on Points Plus....
|
|
|
Post by cathygeha on Aug 3, 2018 8:02:54 GMT
Fascinating reading in this thread!
I started in 1984 - exchanges - lost 30 pounds and kept most of it off a couple of years then moved and eventually had it and more to lose
I started again in 1998 and was doing exchanges but had heard of points and a friend went to the USA, brought back the first 123 points book - only the first book of that program - and I embraced points BUT I did not follow the GHGs and ended up having a very bad diet...if I wanted to Margaritas with friends then I budgeted that for the day and...not many points were left for real food. Milk and fat? Why spend points on them when I could spend them on something else I thought I wanted more. I did reach goal weight and again the two year mark came and I was at goal only to lose sight of something or other and regain.
I think I felt healthiest on exchanges...whether it was the higher protein exchanges of 1984 or the later equal exchanges of carbs and proteins...not sure.
The other thing about the changes in the programs all the time is that I did well on success/123 but liked the idea of free fruits but then hated that wine and some other things went up higher in points when that happened.
My gut feeling is that if I went BACK to exchanges from long ago (perhaps not the first week but the fourth) and tracked those with points on the side I might be happier and healthier...hmm...
Had to come back after thinking about what I wrote...one of the problems with going BACK to exchanges is that I now think more in terms of points...so...when it comes to meals I think of what goes in the pot not as food types but how many points they are. I never liked the points allotted in WW recipes as they were higher than what I would calculate them to be. AND with exchanges there were those fiddly calories to figure in and they were not easy...hmm...
|
|
|
Post by zazzles on Aug 3, 2018 13:21:08 GMT
On the rug pulling out thing -- I have mixed feelings. It is difficult on people to have the program radically changed particularly if it worked for you. That said - weight loss and nutrition are areas where the science really is rapidly changing and more information is known. I do want WW to change with the times and more info is known. That said -- I probably did my best on Points Plus.... You raise more interesting points, Kitty. I agree that I want WW to keep up with science. But does that mean that the base program has to change constantly and sometimes radically? Aside from the original and echanges programs, the GHGs introduced under PointsPlus were the clearest direction for eating a healthful, balanced diet that WW ever gave (IMHO, of course). To me the GHGs were an advisory, kind of like those yellow advisory signs on roads that suggest you slow down to 25 MPH on a curve or risk going over the edge. And I don't see why MOST of the changes in science couldn't be handled as advisories—perhaps GHGs that shift over time to match current science—without the radical program changes we've suffered over the past 7 years. When PointsPlus was introduced, WW made a BIG deal out of the fact that it had been 10 years since POINTS was introduced. Well, five years later they introduced SmartPoints, and one year after that they introduced Freestyle. So are we to expect yet another HUGE upheaval in three years (20 years past POINTS)? Time will tell. They are currently introducing Headspace. To me the person on those audio snippets sounds like a hyponist. So maybe the future program will be no program at all—just nightly Headspace loops that reprogram our eating habits and tastes via subliminal suggestion. I'm being facetious, of course...but then again...
|
|
|
Post by itsrad on Aug 3, 2018 13:27:26 GMT
So are we to expect yet another HUGE upheaval in three years (20 years past POINTS)? Time will tell. My quick answer to this is "yes, of course." A good part of the reason we have HUGE upheavals every three years is driven by the bottom line. What happens when a new program is introduced? People flock to meetings. Everyone is excited - the NEW PROGRAM WORKS. NOW I can lose weight. (Those of us on the treadmill know this to be the honeymoon phase.) Then reality sets in. I really can't eat more. This is hard. I want to out for Mexican and fall into the chips and margarita. I hate this program. I don't want to weigh-in this week..... NEW PROGRAM. Rinse and repeat.
|
|