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Post by zazzles on Aug 3, 2018 13:40:11 GMT
So are we to expect yet another HUGE upheaval in three years (20 years past POINTS)? Time will tell. My quick answer to this is "yes, of course." A good part of the reason we have HUGE upheavals every three years is driven by the bottom line. What happens when a new program is introduced? People flock to meetings. Everyone is excited - the NEW PROGRAM WORKS. NOW I can lose weight. (Those of us on the treadmill know this to be the honeymoon phase.) Then reality sets in. I really can't eat more. This is hard. I want to out for Mexican and fall into the chips and margarita. I hate this program. I don't want to weigh-in this week..... NEW PROGRAM. Rinse and repeat. That was almost a spittake! While I was writing that, I was thinking about the figures I saw in the financials earlier this year. The financials always cover the membershp numbers including average retention rate. I was a bit surprised to see that the average length of time members stick around is somewhere between 6 and 9 months. So those of use who have been around forever are totally NOT average, and our vast memory of program changes through the years through our personal experiences would be unlikely to be shared by most members. And what's that saying (applied to those who come and go quickly): ignorance is bliss?
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Post by hallian on Aug 3, 2018 15:19:17 GMT
I actually think it's good that WW changes over time. As some have done, a person can always continue using the "plan" that is helping them lose weight. Nobody has to adopt the newest version of WW. Also, I think a person can get into a rut after using the same plan and eating the same foods for a year. Sometimes mixing things up is a good thing. And finally, I would never have joined WW if I had to eat fish and liver. Never would have happened.
I don't remember seeing anyone mention portion control and I know that I have to constantly remind myself how big a cup is or how big a TBL of coffee creamer looks like.
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ladymajky
Transcendent Member
220/169/150
Posts: 871
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Post by ladymajky on Aug 3, 2018 15:20:35 GMT
I wondered today if my perception of that was correct. I keep a record of what I eat each day on MFP and I went back and calculated how many points each meal was that I ate that was under 1300 calories. What I found was that on those days, I ate an average of 30 points. The problem is that I get 23 points a day + 28 weekly points. So, an average of 27 points. At 30 points a day I am in the hole about 21 points a week. There were days that I ended up at 27 points a day. For example. There was a day I ate 22 points. The problem? I ate 710 calories that day, 770 calories on another 22 point day. A more typical day was I ate 1027 calories at 29 points. No, I didn't eat a lot of junk. I ate only 10 g of saturated fat and 25 g of sugar most of which was natural sugar in foods, not added sugar. I also found that some weeks where I was fine on calories, I was way over on points. For example, there was a week that I was in the hole by 53 points. I ate an average of 1193 calories a day. But, basically the same food program that I was able to lose weight on (about 1200 calories a day) is one that totally puts me above points now. And, I find that when I track points it ends up being demotivating to me. Anyway - I think I am just going to calorie count and not even try to count points. Kitty , Your analysis exactly matches my own analysis in comparing calories and points. I, too, have had a year of change and upheaval. And I gained 10-12 pounds despite my best efforts to stick with the Smart Points/Freestyle Points programs and get in exercise almost every day. I suspected overly optimistic estimating on the exercise side, and got a Fitbit to force honesty. My 23-point days come in at 900-1000 calories. My 1200 calorie days come in at 25-27 points. I lost 72 pounds on Points Plus. I gained 14 pounds on Smart Points. I'm just barely maintaining on Freestyle at 23 points/1000 calories. Would I lose that 14 pounds on calorie counting, at 1200 calories? I'm coming to the same conclusion that you came to: I think I am just going to calorie count and not even try to count points.
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Post by fullmahina on Aug 3, 2018 16:20:54 GMT
I alternate between Freestyle and MFP and have seen all the issues mentioned here.
The disconnect between points and calories can be frustrating. I ditched the original Smart Points program after having episodes of lightheadedness, headaches,and extreme hunger. After analyzing calorie intake after hitting my SP daily points limit I saw that calorie consumption was often way below 1200, sometimes as low as 700. This was because I had the nerve to have a few slices of real bread with real butter, maybe a bag of 100-calorie snacks, blowing the SP max right out of the gate. But damn I was losing weight, lol! And oh yeah, my hair started falling out. Adios and aloha, Smart Points. HATED SP with a passion.
So along comes Freestyle. IMHO a vast improvement over SP but nowhere near as carefree and joyous as Oprah would have us believe. I do like the freedom of the unlimited beans and fish and poultry but I'm still feeling the penalties from the whole grains, nuts, and dairy. Perhaps FS will be further tweaked to knock down the point values of those foods.
If I am feeling unduly punished by FS I switch on over to MFP for a while. I like the FS aspect of not counting every damn thing I put in my mouth so MFP eventually gets annoying and I go back to FS. When I find myself screwing up royally I double-track. Fickle, I know, but this is how I am rolling at the moment.
So where am I now? I make vast amounts of low-point soups, chili, and bean salads and really do enjoy them. But I have taken to importing my FS recipes to MFP and now measure them out instead of scarfing them down with reckless abandon. Calories really do count, they really really do. I feel that FS has gotten me into analyzing and adjusting recipes and ending up with healthier versions of them and I like that.
As far as weight loss---stagnant. But that is on me, as there have been extended periods in the past few months where I have gone off track completely. Houseguests, celebrations, etcetera. But I do find that going back to FS is an easier transition than restarting MFP, for whatever reason. Some scrambled eggs, salad with shredded chicken, nice piece of salmon with steamed veggies. FS has become my favorite go-to for getting back in gear without the burden of always weighing and measuring. To me, less pressure, less feeling of deprivation, overall.
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Post by bbbearsmom on Aug 3, 2018 16:53:38 GMT
Kitty, Thank you for posting this thread. As I've said I've been gaining well today I tracked my planned day on WW and using their calorie count I added up my calories. I'm too embarrassed to say how many calories today is but it is pretty far over what I use to eat for maintenance. I've had a huge amount of portion creep over the last year or so and it wasn't showing up at all on Free Style. Now I'm sure the leader would say this is where I would use common sense and cut back on what I was eating. But without numbers it was hard for me to figure out. I was concentrating on points and I'm way overeating on zero-point food. I've got a lot of food to walk back. Will have to dig out my sign-on for MFP and go back to it. When Free Style came out I was worried about this. I suppose this is where "intuitive eating" me thinking things through is suppose to work but I think I succumbed to the thinking that zero-point food is free. My mouth dropped when I totaled up my calories. But in a way this is a good thing, I have my answer on why I'm gaining weight.
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Post by bbbearsmom on Aug 3, 2018 17:53:15 GMT
Just sent this email to my leader:
For whatever reason I decided to count up the calories for my food plan for the day. I am eating way to way, way over my maintenance calories. I had started to make sure I was eating within my WW maintenance points but I’m eating a lot of zero-point foods and I wasn’t thinking on cutting back on them. Now I think this portion creep started over a year ago but just wasn’t showing up in my logging. I will be double tracking at least for a while until I get my calories under control. So far not having numbers attached to the additional zero-point foods isn’t working for me.
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ladymajky
Transcendent Member
220/169/150
Posts: 871
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Post by ladymajky on Aug 3, 2018 18:05:43 GMT
bbbearsmom, It will be interesting to see what kind of "corporate speak" your leader responds with. I suspect the leaders know full well the frustrations we are talking about. However, the leaders have no authority to make any changes or recommendations beyond the script. The best they can do is pass a member's comments up the chain of command. Who knows if the grassroots concerns ever make it up to the top?? By the time one individual's comments make it up to someone with power, they are so diluted and diminished they are lost in the shuffle.
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Post by cj59 on Aug 3, 2018 18:48:40 GMT
Thanks for this post and all the comments to it, it has been very interesting to read I'm glad I first did WW back in the 1980s when they had the exchanges and portion control was very important. Those "rules" were drilled into my mind and I still think of them today. The last time I was a meeting member was during the 1-2-3 Points and then Momentum. I lost a lot on those programs but gained it back. When I started losing again in 2015 I used that program on my own and it worked well for me to get the weight off. It's not working as well for Maintenance so I've started calorie counting too. But I still keep the GHGs in mind and portion control too. And tracking is vital to me, I have to do it every day. I do feel bad for any newer members who aren't learning some of these skills because I don't know how well someone who has to lose over 150 pounds like I did will do long term with keeping the weight off if they haven't learned some of what I consider are the basics of weight control.
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Post by alias123 on Aug 3, 2018 19:03:57 GMT
I found on MFP that its recommended calories for me were too high. You can change the daily targets on MFP. For example, I lowered the saturated fat allowed and upped the fiber goal. So I would think you could change the calories.
You can also change what 6 metrics you wish to follow. Currently I follow: calories, saturated fat, fiber, sodium, sugar and protein. I think I am going to drop protein since it seems I always meet that without a problem. I have to check the list and see what else I might be interested in.
I just use the free MFP. It probably allows more if you pay.
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Post by alias123 on Aug 3, 2018 19:09:23 GMT
I found on MFP that its recommended calories for me were too high. Even though I think am very active, I always put that I am not very active in calculators.
Studies show most people overestimate how active they are or how intense their workout are. Unless you really work out at a very high level, I think it is personally better to underestimate activity level.
So maybe just adjust the activity level you put into MFP.
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Kitty
Transcendent Member
Posts: 1,448
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Post by Kitty on Aug 3, 2018 19:26:31 GMT
Yes, the lack of tethering points to calories is a problem. It can go both ways (both too many and too few calories). I just went through 4 weeks of food I ate when I had a good month. I lost 2 pounds at a time I was at goal weight and it was hard to lose much weight. I average 1145 calories a day which is actually a little less than I like (this was over Thanksgiving last year when holiday eating was starting and I was trying to be particularly vigilant). In losing mode, I get 189 SP a week including my weekly points. But over this 4 weeks I averaged about 216 points a week. That is, I was over about 27 points a week when I was eating 1145 calories a day. And, yes, I had some indulgences but not really extreme. And there were wild fluctuations. For example, one day I ate 1005 calories and it was 30 SP. Another day I ate 1035 calories and it 21 SP. One day I ate 1314 calories and it was 40 points. Another day I ate 1277 and it was 33. This is why I am glad I have calorie counted through it all. The problem is when I record my calories but seriously try to stay within my points on WW. I can't do it and then I get frustrated and tend to give up for the week (not the right thing to do, I know). I probably will keep recording points on WW but I will just up my points to reflect the actual points I would need in order to be able to eat at the 1200 calorie a day level.... Anyway - I have those records of what I ate in MFP. I went back and calculated everyt zazzles, I do agree that they don't usually have to change the entire program to keep up with science. I am less confident that revising the GHG would work. It is interesting to me that I come here (or to the old forums) and people take seriously the GHG. My perception in the meetings, though, was that people didn't take them seriously. It was sort of like the government saying you should eat X servings of fruits and veggies. Yeah, yeah...but nobody does. I am not sure why it is that way but recommending you have dairy servings is quite different from an exchange plan saying you must have X servings to be on program. I think it is the emphasis. In the meetings, lip service was given to the GHG and that was about it. Easy for people to ignore. At the same time, I really would like to see WW offer multiple food plans and leave it to us to choose. I don't mean just having a points plan and Simply Filling. Have one plan that counts points in a way that severely penalizes Sat. fat and sugar. Have another that penalizes fat and advantages fiber. And, so on. The reality is that lots of different plans are of similar success for people. But, the one that works well for me may not be the one that works well for you. alias123, Yes. I know I can adjust in MFP. I am a paid member so I can adjust by day or even meal if I want to. I also set MFP to be inactive and don't record exercise to it. Still MFP suggests too high a calorie level. But -- I do adjust it to what I know works for me.
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Post by alias123 on Aug 3, 2018 19:29:44 GMT
I don't remember seeing anyone mention portion control and I know that I have to constantly remind myself how big a cup is or how big a TBL of coffee creamer looks like. That is where MFP totally helped me. I generally eat, what I think at least, is a pretty healthy diet. My problem was portion size. MFP helped me to change. I now no longer weigh my food but I am pretty good at knowing what a portion is.
Following the advice of Dr. Greger, Dr. Fuhrman, Dr. Ornish and Nathan Pritikin all helped me eat a healthier diet. I often will pick up their books to reinforce healthier eating habits. I follow Dr. Greger on Nutrition Facts. org. and on Facebook. His short videos are super helpful to me. I don't follow any of them 100% but they have guided me to a much healthier diet. So combine that with calories, I've been able to maintain for about 4 years now. Though I would still like to get into the lower range for my height. I know if I quite the eating after dinner issue it will happen.
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Post by alias123 on Aug 3, 2018 19:32:19 GMT
alias123, Yes. I know I can adjust in MFP. I am a paid member so I can adjust by day or even meal if I want to. I also set MFP to be inactive and don't record exercise to it. Still MFP suggests too high a calorie level. But -- I do adjust it to what I know works for me. Cool. I should look into the paid version. For me they suggest 1200 calories and that works for me. I will lose when I stick to that.
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Post by alias123 on Aug 3, 2018 19:38:11 GMT
I actually think it's good that WW changes over time. I don't follow WW, but they are one of the reasons I am now much more aware of sugar in foods. Sugar was not something I particularity paid attention to. Because the unhealthy sugar usually came along with saturated fat. Which I do monitor. For those that are looking for a free app. and liked the GHG. Dr. Greger has one. You can google: Dr. Greger's Daily Dozen. I don't have a smart phone. So I print out the daily dozen and run off copies at the library. When I do this for a week or two it helps to reset my diet and any bad food habits that may have sneaked in. I find if I eat his daily dozen, I am not hungry for any junk.
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Post by alias123 on Aug 3, 2018 19:51:50 GMT
I suppose this is where "intuitive eating" me thinking things through is suppose to work but I think I succumbed to the thinking that zero-point food is free. My mouth dropped when I totaled up my calories. I am right there with you, sister. When I first started MFP I was shocked to see I was eating 2000+ calories a day. It made me change up things for the better. Now instead of just eating a huge bowl of pasta for dinner, I make sure half my plate in pasta but the other half is salad or veggies. I try to keep Dr. Fuhrman in mind who recommends the meal start with a salad or veggie soup.
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