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Post by zazzles on Dec 2, 2017 16:13:56 GMT
zazzles , jeanie , I totally see where you both are coming from, but I think you both are so far along in your journey you're forgetting what it's like at the beginning. For people who are new to weight loss, you need a plan with rules because you're learning how to eat for the first time. I, personally, used to have pancakes for breakfast, burgers for lunch, and pizza for dinner, never thought to even look at a fruit or vegetable, and thought nothing of it. This is normal American food, some people eat like this every day. It's about learning portion control, and balance, which is very challenging for newbies. Yesterday, I was on a trip and we had to go out to eat for all three meals. On PP I was only one point over, on SP I was two points over, on this new plan I was 10 points over. I also used to be a math teacher, so let me talk about math, and weight loss: when you feel like a failure, you need small successes to be successful. Staying in your daily points is the way that people feel successful, and that's what makes them stick to the plan, and over time learn healthy eating. Not sure which of my comments you're referring to since you didn't quote it. But I agree with what you say. However, starting with "SmartPoints 1" (as I'm calling it to distinguish from the "new" SmartPoints), WW chose to abandon most direction on eating. Their new chief scientist is a psychologist and his belief is that the problem isn't in our kitchens, stomachs and in restaurants, but in our heads. So his approach is to soft-pedal food control and focus on behavioral change. Now, of course, there hasn't been a complete abandonment of food control, but ask questions about what and how to eat of too many leaders and you will get the canned response: "Eat up to your limit of points and let your weight loss be your guide." Not helpful IMHO, because a rudderless member may eat up to their limit in theater popcorn or candy bars and endup with macronutrient balances that are totally horrible.
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irisinnia
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Post by irisinnia on Dec 2, 2017 16:21:43 GMT
Thinking out loud here. Bare with me. I am seeing so many people posting on Connect about losing points and how they don't eat any of the new zero point foods, so this is horrible to them, and they are really upset. My thinking is: say you are a 30 SP day person, right? If you don't eat any of the new zero point foods and you just keep eating the same way you have been eating, then you will have a 30 point day. You won't get your blue dot. Umm, ok. Is the blue dot that important? I guess to some. Not to me. Is it upsetting that you'll only get 23 daily points, so eating to 30 will look like you are overeating? Are they not realizing that they are still working the plan, just as if the new zero point foods are not there? And that they are still eating the same food, so probably the same amount of calories, it will just look like they have blown it on the new plan, by eating 30 points vs 23? I guess what I'm saying is, if you still eat the same things, just because WW says you only have 23, to compensate for the new additions to the zero point food list, and your tracker will show 30 instead of 23, why are you upset? Again....is it the blue dot? Is it because visually the app is showing you that you have overeaten, because you are only supposed to eat to 23, but have eaten to 30? I can't be the only one that realizes: if I don't eat any of the foods that are going to zero, and my points are dropping to 23, that if I still eat 30 a day, I'm still doing the plan, it just looks like I'm overeating on the app? This is the first program change in ages which has made realize just how many people seem to cede total control of their eating to their points balances. So while, in theory, continuing to eat the same way should produce the same results without regards to whether the member eats more or less than their points, for those who consider themselves to be without any self control or ability to judge fullness, just the foods they currently eat that become zero will cause them potentially to have more points to eat before they hit their ceiling. And that ***could*** make them eat more calories and affect their weight loss effort. Something makes me want to climb onto the roof and shout: "GET SOME DAMNED COMMON SENSE AND TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY." But I won't—because the neighbors have been waiting for decades to have me declared insane and get me carted away. Sorry zazzles, I meant this thought, which like I said, I agree with to some degree.
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irisinnia
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Post by irisinnia on Dec 2, 2017 16:27:40 GMT
zazzles, And I'm totally with you on the SP switch. I have never been a fan of SP myself. And I do blame the chief scientist's bias on that. I use PP still, because I do like guidelines like the GHG's and I even have the old chart that talked about alcohol, sugar, how much meat you should eat, etc. I'm just a bleeding heart for newbies because I know how hard it is, and I think that a lot of people who are freaking out about the new program are newer to weight loss and might just be cleaving to the only thing they know. So I'm pushing for empathy is all. Thanks for listening!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 16:35:53 GMT
I think what has many in a tizzy at the moment is the lack of self-control, or their belief that they do not have self control, and the factor of sloppiness when you are doing your own math. Personally, and feel free to tell me I'm silly... if I truly did not eat zero point foods and I would always be 6-7 over ( ok, using weeklies and fitpoints) and I had to keep track of the math myself.... why pay WW for something that becomes difficult. At that point I would 1- download ultimate value diary ( or itrackbites) or just follow eating well , mfp, sparlpeople or whatever. The sloppiness of not adhering to the program and using the that program would give me sleepless nights. I need the tiny ends knotted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 16:39:11 GMT
I don't know if any of you listen to FatDag or have his app downloaded..... but one of the things he talks about is the common sense of using the points for healthy foods rather than fitting in on a daily basis numbers of empty calories/points and expecting the same results. Treats are one thing, daily expenditure on carp is another
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irisinnia
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Post by irisinnia on Dec 2, 2017 16:51:44 GMT
I don't know if any of you listen to FatDag or have his app downloaded..... but one of the things he talks about is the common sense of using the points for healthy foods rather than fitting in on a daily basis numbers of empty calories/points and expecting the same results. Treats are one thing, daily expenditure on carp is another I used to eat nothing but carp, and even cutting back on carp yielded some results. So I feel like that's stage one. Stage two involves picking things that are less carp-y instead and/or filling in the meal with other stuff. And that's before you ever get to actual good choices and balance. So it's definitely good advice when you're in a later part of the journey.
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jeanie
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Post by jeanie on Dec 2, 2017 17:05:04 GMT
zazzles , And I'm totally with you on the SP switch. I have never been a fan of SP myself. And I do blame the chief scientist's bias on that. I use PP still, because I do like guidelines like the GHG's and I even have the old chart that talked about alcohol, sugar, how much meat you should eat, etc. I'm just a bleeding heart for newbies because I know how hard it is, and I think that a lot of people who are freaking out about the new program are newer to weight loss and might just be cleaving to the only thing they know. So I'm pushing for empathy is all. Thanks for listening! I completely agree with you on the newbies. I do feel empathy for them, as this is probably going to be overwhelming for them, especially without specific guidelines, considering the push is even more towards eat mindfully, and if you don't lose, they are not giving specific action to take. Actually, the ones that were most upset to the point of being peeved off and commenting about it - the comments were coming from long time WWers, some leaders, some lifetime members, etc that have worked several variations of WW plans over the decade. And that they seemed utterly shocked that the plan was changing again. And not being scared of not being able to adapt, when they have adapted to plan changes for so many years. That is pretty much what was baffling to me.
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jeanie
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Post by jeanie on Dec 2, 2017 17:11:34 GMT
I don't know if any of you listen to FatDag or have his app downloaded..... but one of the things he talks about is the common sense of using the points for healthy foods rather than fitting in on a daily basis numbers of empty calories/points and expecting the same results. Treats are one thing, daily expenditure on carp is another I am probably one of the few that don't. I don't really like podcast to begin with lol. But I did attempt to listen to a few. But since he sticks to the "if you are out of points, stop eating the points" as his motto. Specifically daily, I could not continue to listen. Just eating dailies on average puts me at a 1000 calories or less. That just doesn't work for me, especially during training season, when i am racking up 30 to 50 miles of running a week. Don't get me wrong. He is a great example of the program and how it works. But how he used it to work for him - successfully. And he is also keen on saying that his is not the right way for everyone, that we have to find what works for us. But he still sticks primarily to the daily points way for him. And it works for him. It just doesn't work for me. Only on sedentary weeks of no high intensity activity, an maybe just when I need to buckle down for a few weeks, to get the weight loss boost going for me again.
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irisinnia
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Post by irisinnia on Dec 2, 2017 17:31:16 GMT
zazzles , And I'm totally with you on the SP switch. I have never been a fan of SP myself. And I do blame the chief scientist's bias on that. I use PP still, because I do like guidelines like the GHG's and I even have the old chart that talked about alcohol, sugar, how much meat you should eat, etc. I'm just a bleeding heart for newbies because I know how hard it is, and I think that a lot of people who are freaking out about the new program are newer to weight loss and might just be cleaving to the only thing they know. So I'm pushing for empathy is all. Thanks for listening! I completely agree with you on the newbies. I do feel empathy for them, as this is probably going to be overwhelming for them, especially without specific guidelines, considering the push is even more towards eat mindfully, and if you don't lose, they are not giving specific action to take. Actually, the ones that were most upset to the point of being peeved off and commenting about it - the comments were coming from long time WWers, some leaders, some lifetime members, etc that have worked several variations of WW plans over the decade. And that they seemed utterly shocked that the plan was changing again. And not being scared of not being able to adapt, when they have adapted to plan changes for so many years. That is pretty much what was baffling to me. That is really odd. All my leaders seem pretty excited about the plan. And I would assume that a lot of SmartPoints(1) lovers would love SmartPoints(2) since they don't mind being 'told' which foods are 'good' and which foods are 'bad', but a deal breaker for one person might not be for another. Maybe that's why these new plans are so divisive. They tap into people's strengths and weeknesses.
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Post by bbbearsmom on Dec 2, 2017 18:03:45 GMT
Remember, "carp" is now zero points!!! (Yes I know you used that instead of crap.) zazzles , As most people know I'm a big fan of the Judith Beck book "The Beck Diet Solution" because it is all about the head game. I loved the change in meetings with the cognitive behavioral therapy type topic's but I miss my guardrails. I want to know which lane to drive in, how fast to go, the rules of the road. When SP came out someone made the comment about the chief scientist was a psychologist but that comment didn't sink in until your comment here. I won't recommend WW anymore since they introduced SP.
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wildcat
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Post by wildcat on Dec 2, 2017 18:37:35 GMT
Yes, the new WW approach is basically Beck IMO. I appreciate them focusing more on behavior frankly, and I never would have thought I would feel that way. But since I've been back to meetings this fall I am getting so much more out of them because they aren't all about recipe exchanges and food finds and low point bread and that kind of thing which I always found fairly useless (I do not want to make cake with Diet Coke, thanks anyway). Maybe it's just the specific group I'm in, but I think overall the new meeting approach is great. My leader mentioned yesterday that the day after Thanksgiving 2016 her 8 AM meeting had 14 members. This year the same meeting had 52. Something must be clicking with people. I still don't love meetings but I like them a lot better than I used to.
I can't believe I'm saying this since I used to make fun of WW for its "nudge" terminology, but I do think the nudge approach is going to work for the majority of people in terms of guiding them away from crap. Yes, it's entirely possible to spend your points on junk, but I think once you do that a few times and end up starving the average person isn't going to keep doing it. There might be some people who eat a ton of chicken, eggs and yogurt all day and then eat 23 points of cake but I think that's going to be a very small number and they're not going to do that every day.
I miss the GHGs to a certain extent, but I always thought there was too much orthodoxy there. For example, I didn't believe there was anything special about their 5 designated oils. Although I love dairy I don't think you have to eat dairy in order to be healthy. So not having those GHGs can allow people to spend their points in a way that they themselves believe is healthy, while still losing weight.
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jeanie
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Post by jeanie on Dec 2, 2017 21:12:20 GMT
wildcat , my particular meeting can go so many directions lol...sometimes we will get stuck on recipes, alternative food suggestions, finds, etc. As well as behavior, mindset, setting short term, long term goals, what are we willing to do or try differently this week. I like it for that. You just never know what is going to happen. It keeps it interesting for me. Some days I go needing to here something motivational, or behavior related when I am in a rut, and the meeting is totally about food items, substitutions etc. I used to get so mad and discouraged, but now I try to pick at least something from that meeting when it turns out that way, that I can take away from it Edit to say: I think I am growing lol. As I am not getting so frustrated anymore lol... either that, or I am just getting old, and have learned and mastered the "tune out" method
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Kitty
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Post by Kitty on Dec 2, 2017 21:14:00 GMT
irisinnia, Even though I now have 7 points a day less I find it easier to stay in my points. Today is an example of why. This is the last day of my WW week. I have been dual tracking the current program and the new program. I also count calories. I went to a morning meeting and didn't eat before hand as I was weighing in. We then went out to eat. I was planning to eat some things where I was eating that were high point. On the current program I get 30 daily points and had 14 weekly points left. On the new program, I get 23 and had 17 weekly points left. I did have a large lunch that was just over 1300 calories. It was 43 points on the current program. I have 1 weekly point left for the rest of today. I will eat a light dinner, probably veggies with some chicken breast or maybe tuna. But, with only 1 point left I will want a snack in the evening and I will go over. I will eat some zero point fruit this afternoon, but I know I will eat more than one point. I do have some FitPoints left so it will be OK but I may even exceed those. Now on the new program, my lunch was 36 points. I "saved" 7 points by having salmon and corn. Yes, I get only 23 points now but I ate 7 points less for this meal on the new plan than what it would be on the current plan. I started the day with a few more weekly points (because of rollovers) so I now have 4 points left. On the current program, I will probably go over for the week by a small amount. If not, I would be miserable trying to get out of the rest of this day for 1 point and the few FitPoints that I have if I want to use them. But on the new program? No problem. I can have a great dinner for 4 points. I can have a salad with chicken in it and can use 2 points on salad dressing if I want. I would then have 2 points left for a snack. But, really, I will probably have a 0 point dinner. It is super easy to do that now. And, then I would have 4 points left for snacks. Totally doable. A little bit to my surprise I am finding this program far easier to stay within points on and I am definitely eating healthier.
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Post by zazzles on Dec 2, 2017 21:25:34 GMT
I used to eat nothing but carp, and even cutting back on carp yielded some results. So I feel like that's stage one. Stage two involves picking things that are less carp-y instead and/or filling in the meal with other stuff. And that's before you ever get to actual good choices and balance. So it's definitely good advice when you're in a later part of the journey. Actually, the ones that were most upset to the point of being peeved off and commenting about it - the comments were coming from long time WWers, some leaders, some lifetime members, etc that have worked several variations of WW plans over the decade. And that they seemed utterly shocked that the plan was changing again. But since I've been back to meetings this fall I am getting so much more out of them because they aren't all about recipe exchanges and food finds and low point bread and that kind of thing which I always found fairly useless (I do not want to make cake with Diet Coke, thanks anyway).
Lots of interesting thoughts in this thread. And it all makes me realize a few things: 1) Individuals are just that, and each one will approach the program in their own unique manner. Some will want very specific direction, some will want guidance, and some will be incended at being told what to do. 2) Individuals of all walks of life, ages, and who are products of their generational upbringing will want and need different things and will have specific attitudes. 3) And I've said this before, WW should get their marketing people and their scientific people and present a single, cohesive message. With every program the marketing people tell the world, "This is the be-all, end-all weight loss program. It trumps them all. It is the ONLY way to have a healthy diet and lost and maintain weight." And they fail to add a footnote that says, "*Note: until we decide to change the program again." 4) Like all other things, some folks enjoy be led into introspection and some hate or resist it. That said, I don't mind the behavior modification approach so much as I do the constant changing of the focus week-to-week and the cyclical nature of it with WW: how many weeks out of the year do we need to talk about activity, or any other topic. I though there was a good balance a couple of years ago when they decided that each month would have one specific focus and the weeks of that month would be spent on that topic. I felt that gave leaders some time to get into the depth of the topic and that it was more likely folks would begin to make actual change. But is is what it is and we veterans as well as newbies have to approach it, use it, and deal with it the best we can.
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Post by zazzles on Dec 2, 2017 21:35:05 GMT
A little bit to my surprise I am finding this program far easier to stay within points on and I am definitely eating healthier. That is precisely my expectation, too. And part of that is that program changes since 2010 have helped retrain me in terms of my food choices. I age a lot of Greek yogurt during the PointsPlus years because it counted towards the dairy GHG and was a better points bargain than skim milk. But then when SP came along and dairy cost more points, I all but stopped consuming it. Now that (most) plain NF yogurts will be a zero-point food, I will likely go back to getting more calcium via dairy. And probably I won't even mind paying more points under SP for nonfat milk than I did under PP because many points-containing foods that I now eat will be zero points. Doesn't mean that I will consume my points up to the limit, just means I'll be able to embrace a wider array of foods within my calorie budget without feeling the guilt of going over my points or the frustration of denying myself in order to stay within my points. ThIs, of course, is theory. Reality begins tomorrow and I will see how I fare and feel as the next month moves along.
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